Episode 13: How to design for Australia’s most sustainable housing estate

We are kicking the new year off with a super interesting topic: sustainable property developments. We have Jess Cuman on, designer and thermal assessor in his own business Adapt Design Group, who has done a lot of work for The Cape, Australia’s most sustainable development.

We talk about his own personal journey that brought him and his family to focus on more sustainable and energy efficient house design, and what design approach he is taking in his projects.

Jess also gives his thoughts on the future of housing developments and shares his wishes for improvements in the building code.

Episode Transcript

Sandra Redlich  01:06

All right, first episode of the new year and a big one, we’ve got a lot to talk about. Because we’ve got Jess Cuman with us today. Jess, thanks for taking the time. Can you tell everyone a little bit about yourself and maybe explain why we’re talking to you today? Or how the connection is with Anthony as well?


Jess Cuman  01:37

We have a design company down in Cape Patterson, called Adapt Design Group. We do a lot of work in one of Australia’s most sustainable states called The Cape. And me and Anthony have a mutual friend through music of all things. And we sort of got introduced through him and sort of blossomed from there. We’ve got very similar interests in a few different fields. And it’s been fun.


Sandra Redlich  02:09

Just from my perspective, I remember last year, I don’t know exactly when it was, but at some point, I just remember Anthony went down to see you. And after that he just couldn’t stop talking about the development and just the work you’ve done and the conversations you guys were having, because it just seems like there was a lot of alignment and just a lot of thought process that sparked from those conversations. And you’ve mentioned the Cape, which is something we’re probably going to be focusing on a lot in our talk today. As you said, it’s been named the most sustainable development in Australia. So we’re talking about very energy efficient housing. And before we hit record, you already gave away a little bit of a detail of like there’s an average energy rating happening. So can you explain a little bit what the Cape is and how you’re involved with that development?


Jess Cuman  02:56

Yeah, so we’re extremely lucky that development is literally on our back doorstep. So the Cape, there’s 232 lots in the development, it’s over a very large parcel of land, you could probably fit double the amount of blocks on that if it was a, you know, a normal residential development. So there’s a really big focus in the Cape on open space and space and social connection and all that sort of stuff. From you know, from a livability perspective, but then also there’s a really big focus on the energy efficiency of the houses. Stormwater, they look at it as a whole. So the minimum requirements for a house in the Cape is a seven and a half stars for the energy rating. You have to have at least 10,000 liters water storage or water tank, and that’s all connected back into the house, mainly just external taps, laundries and toilets. You have to have a minimum two and a half kilowatt solar array on your house. Most houses up there are well above the minimum. So yeah, there’s the benchmark. That’s the expectation. There’s design guidelines around all of that, that we have to meet. There’s a design review panel, but I feel like every project, no one’s hanging around the bare minimums. Everyone’s sort of trying to push, push, push. I live there as well. It’s a very interesting place to work, place to live at. A lot of like minded people in a small area, which makes for some interesting conversations as you are cruising around on a walking track or you’re down at the playground with the kids or on your way to the beach.


Sandra Redlich  04:57

Yeah, awesome.


Anthony Jenkin  04:58

So what was your decision personally for deciding to reside there Jess?


Jess Cuman  05:03

So I grew up down here. As a kid, we spent that much time at Cape Paterson you know, just surfing or scuba diving or just hanging at the beach. So I’d always loved the cape, sort of, we had some stuff going on with the existing house we had in the next town, the bigger town across just initially with mould and stuff like that. it was really old house…


Anthony Jenkin  05:28

Feel free to expand on that too, by the way.


Jess Cuman  05:30

Yeah, sure. So basically, me, my wife, and my kids just had some health issues from living in the house. You know, 70s brick veneer house, it was just old. And the air was getting a bit mouldy and stuff. And for me, personally, I lost all my smell or my taste. I had hayfever for just two years straight, couldn’t figure it out, medication didn’t do anything. That sort of stuff. Wife basically ended up with a bit of like an auto immune thing where she ended up getting this thing called pots. And that’s all just from living in this house. So that was a bit of a battle. That was sort of, you know, a good couple of years to work through that with little kids and trying to run a business and everyone not being well, and that sort of stuff. And the girls had a lot of allergies and that sort of stuff. And it all pretty much stemmed from living in that house. And it just got to a point where we had a building biologist come out to the house and do some testing. And basically, there must have been a water leakage or something underneath the house at some stage or whatever it was. And yeah, it was just for us personally, it wasn’t a place we could live anymore. We were sensitive to the things that were going on in that house. You guys might have been okay with it. It was just for us. It was not good. So basically, we sold up. And yeah, I’d already started doing a little bit of work out at the Cape. And we thought, well, let’s just go for it. So we bit the bullet, sold the house, bought a block. And then yeah, then sort of went from there. I could tell from a health perspective, everyone’s a lot better now it’s like everyone’s on the up and up like that. There’s no hay fever anymore. I’ve got taste back up, smell back. Wife’s so much better. Kids allergies have sorted themselves out. It was a testing time. But I guess yeah, we’ve learned a lot from it, if anything, one thing we could take away from it. And that really kind of helped, I guess internally from a business perspective is like the big focus for us. When we’re doing stuff that that is not an issue for anyone who lives in a house that we’ve designed. So yeah, go through the process with the building biologist. And that sort of stuff was really interesting. Just things that they focus on, air quality and condensation and all that sort of stuff. It’s super important. And especially you know with that stuff that you guys do. So yeah, that was our push to get out to the Cape. And then, funny enough, we bought the block, and I got a phone call from mom, after I told her that I bought the block. She’s like, you do realize that when you were 10 years old, you told me that you were going to live out at Cape Paterson one day. I do not recall that at all. But she’s like, Yeah, you definitely did. And you’ve done it. So congratulations.


Anthony Jenkin  08:48

My mind went straight to and then you have the most amazing opportunity of being able to design your own home.


Jess Cuman  08:54

Yeah. Or challenge depends which way you look at it.


Anthony Jenkin  08:58

Yeah. What was that like for you?


Jess Cuman  09:01

Yeah. So I guess, you know, you’ve got endless possibilities. And we’ve got our design guidelines to meet, that’s fine. And we’ve got our site constraints to work with. And that’s fine. And then you can do whatever you want from there, which was actually probably the hardest client I’ve ever had was me and my wife. Honestly, I sketched up a few things. I couldn’t get anything to work. Back in 2019, so the Building Designers Association Victoria, or Design Matters now, they have a 10 star challenge that they do every year. So design a house, get it to 10 stars. We entered it. We were lucky enough to win it. So basically, I was there. I was sketching. I looked up at the wall, we end up with a picture on the wall and thought why aren’t we building that house? So the whole thing for designing that house was doing something that’s 10 stars, that’s efficient, air quality, non toxic, all those things were super important. Well, why don’t we just build that? We could do that. But it was already designed, I noticed that it put another bedroom on, give it a bit of a tweak, made it work for the block that we had, and then sort of went from there. So we’ve got a house that we designed to 10, can we build it? Can we build it reasonably? A normal build, it doesn’t have to be anything special, we don’t have to go overboard. So you know, put your money where your mouth is. We can design these things. Let’s build one. So we did. It didn’t get to 10 obviously, I’ve got it to nine. But I really didn’t have to do or wasn’t doing anything out of the norm that any builder who’s built a house before couldn’t do. Other than there’s a bit of a focus. And this is Cape stuff, Cape guidelines too. There is focus on sealing up the building. We splashed out, we did thermally broken aluminium windows. That was one thing that we really spent some money on. And the rest of it was just fine and with a builder that gets it. That’s happy to work with us. So yeah, pretty much that was the journey, we took a house that we designed. And we basically said, let’s build it. Let’s prove that it can be done. And I think we did.


Anthony Jenkin  11:20

Absolutely, you did.


Jess Cuman  11:21

And anyone can afford to build that house.


Anthony Jenkin  11:26

Yes. And, you know, testament to that, it obviously got the attention of a lot of people. I’ll call it a success story. You took home multiple awards at the recent design matters, national awards, you’ve also featured nationally through I don’t even want to say how many countless newspaper articles, family photos of yourself. So yeah, well done.


Jess Cuman  11:49

Thank you.


Anthony Jenkin  11:50

Aside from that, how many homes do you think it’s been in total that you’ve been involved with in that development alone?


Jess Cuman  11:57

Yeah, so I’ve crunched the numbers before, we’re up around 50 at the moment. So we’re lucky, we are working with the three sort of main builders that have done the majority of the work up there. And then obviously, we have our own clients as well that come directly to us here. We’re at about 50. And the majority of those houses have actually been built.


Anthony Jenkin  12:20

That’s also something to be pretty proud of.


Jess Cuman  12:22

Yeah. That’s over about a four year period, roughly.


Anthony Jenkin  12:29

I have heard – I can’t substantiate this – but I have heard that up to 60% of designs don’t make it through to construction in Victoria, that fluctuates from state to state. I’ve heard it’s higher in Queensland, but yeah. So I’d imagine a good portion of that is due to budget constraints.


Jess Cuman  12:45

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that’s true. And I guess, we’re extremely lucky that the builders that we do work with, or that we refer clients on to, they’re happy to share knowledge with us. So that we can forward it on to the clients, so you know, we’re making informed decisions right from the outset. And same with the client. They’re making informed decisions right from the outset. The builder designer, client relationship is massive, just to be able to really get on top of those things before, you know, budget blowouts are huge. And they do happen, you know, every now and again. But having that relationships been for us, it’s been huge, just to be able to get these things across the line, what houses are getting built. We can design a house and tell the client this is this much, or if they give us a budget, we’ll design a house to that. We go well, this is what we can do. And more often than not, they’ll manage to find a little bit more money to get what they want.


Anthony Jenkin  13:48

We relate with everything you’ve just said like it’s so critical to have that team together from day one, right? And as designers, it’s not our expertise, construction cost and value management. That’s definitely a builder’s. And I can’t stress that enough to anyone listening as well: Get the team together from as early as possible, design stage, to make sure that it stays on budget, and that you can keep that way all the way through to construction.


Sandra Redlich  14:12

Speaking about budgets, can you share a little bit of what the focuses are in your designs, that you can achieve a high energy rating in a very efficient house? But still stay on budget and make it affordable. What’s the secret that you can share?


Jess Cuman  14:28

What’s the secret? Honestly, the starting point, it’s all about the passive solar design principles for us. You call them hybrid homes. Internally, we’ve always said like the perfect house is passive solar design, but then sealed up. Almost at passive house level. We have done a couple of passive houses, but we don’t do a lot of those. So we’ve always thought internally the perfect house is that. So, first thing for us is getting those passive solar design principles right and in place, so usual thing is orientation, that’s the first thing you control. Orientation, shading, making sure that the layout of the house is most of its facing north where we can. For me, it’s always the living room, it just has to have the correct orientation. And then from there, I’ll go to the next biggest room. And this has to do sort of with some energy rating stuff, heating and cooling loads, always want the main living space, the next biggest space, which usually might be like a kid or master bedroom, and then I’m happy to sacrifice on the other room. So those secondary bedrooms, if I can’t get them facing north, they might come around to the south. So focus on those big areas of space and spend the most time in, that’s huge, getting those laid out and facing the right way, pointed in the right direction, that’s one. Then we start having a look at things like shading. Then we’ve got the passive heating and cooling. So things like thermal mass, crossbow ventilation, glazing is huge. Making sure your glazing is facing the right way, that the size is the right proportion to the room that it’s in. Design wise, they are sort of the big three I reckon. And then from there, once we start getting into the documentation side of things in detail, and then we’re starting to look at insulation, how are we going to seal up the building? How are we going to ventilate the building? And then again, for me personally, there’s that condensation management stuff, which is sort of it’s becoming to be more prevalent, as you’ve sort of mentioned before, with the new building rec stuff and especially passive housing, and that sort of gear. So that’s for us. That’s it. That’s the big main things for us. That’s what we focus on. It’ a bit tricky for us, because we’re down south, we’re on the coast, and all the views are in the south. So some blocks, you know, it doesn’t quite work out that way, you got to sacrifice one thing to get another thing and that’s cool.


Anthony Jenkin  17:25

Just so everyone knows as well, you are a thermal assessor as well, as a designer. Would you say that, you know, that that influences the way you design as well? The fact that you’re doing this at the same time as you’re designing, you’re also using thermal assessment software and getting those ratios of glazing?


Jess Cuman  17:45

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So for us, we’ll do an energy rating once we’re sort of into our design development stage, usually your floor plans laid out, we’ve got some elevations and we’ve got a bit of the form happening. We know what the roof lines are doing and windows are in place, we’ll do an energy rating at that stage. Really, that’s about being able to see where we’re at as a star rating. We might be aiming for eight. But then we can really focus in on each each of the rooms. So we’ll break down, we’ll check out all the rooms, we’ll see which rooms are performing the worst. Why are they performing the way they are? What can we do to fix it? And it could be real simple, it could just be a window size, we might need to make it bigger, we might need to make it smaller, it might need more ventilation. And like the open ability, we might need to change from an opening to a sliding or casement or whatever it is. So we can do those changes early on in the pace before it’s finished and engineering is done. And they’ve got a quote from the builder and we’ve gone for a building permit. Oh, do we need an energy raing? Yeah, we’ll do that quickly. We started to do that at the start, it’s part of the design process. We just need to know that it’s hitting the targets that we’re aiming for. If someone’s going for, say, eight stars, or nine stars or whatever, but instantly, I know that the form is going to be very simple. We need to reduce surface area, we need to make sure everything’s pointing in the right direction. So you know, if the brief is that we’re going for eight or nine stars or whatever, that will definitely play a part in how I lay out the building on the site. And that’s backed up with the energy rating stuff, right early on in the piece.


Sandra Redlich  19:37

What’s your average client like? You’ve said there’s different briefs and you know, there’s certain guidelines you have to hit just from the development point of view. But I like that, you know, we’ve talked about passive house, it’s quite rigorous. You have, you know, certain standards you just have to meet. And I like the flexibility because every person is different. Every budgets is different, every, you know, individual need from a house is different. So what’s kind of the experience that you’ve had with the 50 houses that you’ve designed in that development of what the clients are like, what their focus point is? What they want from their houses?


Jess Cuman  20:13

Yeah, so I guess like I’ve mentioned before, we’re lucky because we’re working with builders. Sometimes a builder is the first point of contact. And sometimes we would definitely just get our own client, and we’ll sort of go out into tender or something from there. I guess the Cape is very interesting, because people either have known about it for years, or they’ll stumble upon it and have never heard of Cape Paterson before. But the reason they stumbled upon it is because they’re of that mindset already. They’re looking for that. So now they have a platform where they can have the energy efficient house, they can have the veggie garden, they can basically knock their bills out, have a solar battery. So it’s very different the clientele that we have within the state versus, say, the clientele that we would have, that aren’t doing stuff in the state. They’re very switched on. They know what they want. They’ve done their homework. They understand the passive solar design principles there. They are asking very technical questions about… it could be the solar that technical questions about the windows. And why would you do this window over that window, and we found this company, what do you think of this? These people were coming in with a really good knowledge base to start off with. So yeah, you have some really interesting conversations through the design process. But it’s really easy to sort of portray what you’re trying to achieve to someone who already gets it. That’s one thing. And yeah, I’ll sort of back over the story we started with. There’s a house. So I did an energy rating for a person that lives up there. It was designed by another company. Talking about having a good knowledge base. So this guy, as part of his design process, while he was working with the architect, he went and downloaded an energy rating software. Found out the one that most people use, went and downloaded it, figured out how to use it himself, and modeled off his own house and did his own energy rating. See how it went? And then yeah, just I know him from living in the same estate as him and he came and knocked on the door, basically, Oh, could you just do the energy reading for me, he goes ‘I had a bit of a crack at it myself here. I’ve got it to 8.4 or 8.5’, or whatever it was, and he sent me his file, I checked it out. He’s done a really great job. It was like 90%, there, a few little tweaks from me. And it came down, but it was still something like 8.3 or 8.4. But yeah, that’s the sort of, you know, that’s the extreme end of clientele that we’re getting there. But most of the people are very aware and understand, you know, they have very clear goals and what they’re trying to achieve. And most of the times, they probably know how to get there. And we can just sort of push the process along. And you have some really good interesting in depth conversations throughout the process, which is great.


Anthony Jenkin  23:15

I suppose this is probably more talking to those who do have a fairly sound knowledge already. But is there anything within the energy rating software that you could give the recommendation to people to consider, like, where are those weakest points or the weakest rooms? And how do you overcome some of those issues?


Jess Cuman  23:29

Yeah, honestly, I feel like we notice when we do an energy rating, the windows by far play the biggest role in how a single room will perform. Heating and cooling loads is what we talk about. Obviously, orientation but let’s assume that we’ve got every habitable room in the house is facing North. So the next thing you definitely got to look at is those windows. So yeah, I feel like we’ve done a lot of homework on that. The builders that we do work with are amazing in it that they’re like what about this company? What about that company? For us, I definitely think it’s window size. Everyone wants to have bigger windows than they need. They feel good, they look good, floor to ceiling windows are great. I could tell from just redoing my house. I had four ceiling windows. I had a lot of glass facing so all the bedrooms and the living space in my house faces north. Floor to ceiling windows because, it’s my house, let’s have floor to ceiling windows, it’s gonna look awesome. The minute I actually reduced that window size in all of the rooms, so master bedroom, the living room, the dining room, bedroom, two and three. That energy rating jumped up a fair bit to be honest, just by reducing the head heights of those windows and bringing them in a little bit. So yeah, they’re the big tweaks. And you need to do that at the design stage anyway, because now you’re changing the look, the design aesthetic, and that sort of stuff. But yeah, I feel like windows is always the thing that we’re pushing the hardest to get to work in those rooms, making sure like I’ve mentioned before you have an open ability, right? To get the cooling loads happening in those rooms is massive. Yeah, I’m always fighting windows I feel like.


Sandra Redlich  25:30

Do you do verifications of the energy rating while you’re building the houses? I mean, you are probably in a unique situation, living in the development and being there when there are being built. So do you do tests and verifications as part of that journey?


Jess Cuman  25:49

Yeah. So as part of the Cape, and the design guidelines I’ve mentioned, they actually do require that you do blower door tests, at the end of the build. It’s seven air changes is what they want to see or less. I know with one of our builders that we do a lot of work with, which is TS Constructions, they average somewhere between sort of like, I think it’s four and five on projects that we’ve done with them. Another one would be Harris Build, they’re roughly around about the same, they seem to hover around that four air changes. So there is that and then I guess from a client perspective, or someone who owns one of the blocks and is working with the builder, they’ve actually bought in now, it was something that we got from another building and design company, that there’s a thermal performance checklist that the design review panel issues with the approval for the design, and they want to see that filled out, they want boxes ticked. So we’re looking at, you know, how you’re sealing things up, and make recommendations on what should be done, order of things. And it’s all construction stuff. Because we’re not on site all the time, we’re not doing the contract admin on projects, we’re not out there, you know, telling them what to do. Basically, we’ve got these builders, they know what they’re doing. And this is just more of like a verification thing for the Cape to know that it’s been done right. And for the client. So blower door tests, the thermal performance checklist that I mentioned there, are the two things that is happening in the cape, specifically, just to ensure that things are getting done right, as detailed, as per the energy writing, that sort of stuff, which isn’t the norm by any stretch. Maybe it will be one day.


Sandra Redlich  27:50



Jess Cuman  27:53

They’re the big things that are happenong at the Cape, and they want to know that those houses are getting built the way that they’ve been designed, and that they need to meet the energy rating. And they want it done right. There’s a lot of universities, RMIT. They keep an eye on the houses, they’re testing the houses all the time, there’s information and data being gathered from a few different houses up there consistently. CSIRO so on and so forth. So those want to make sure that everything’s been done right. All the numbers stack up and all the data’s correct, so that they can give, you know, that they want to pass all this information on to the next developer to do the same thing somewhere else. So yeah, they’re the main two things that they can do to sort of walk it in and make sure it’s done right.


Anthony Jenkin  28:37

Yeah, that’s amazing to hear that. The whole intention here is to open source this. Everything that we’ve done here is, you know, this is how house development should look like in the future. I will just quickly note to everyone as well, that as far as I’m aware, there’s going to be a bit of an optional as built verification checklists that will be forming part of your energy rating certificate. If you google firstrate 5 certificate example, you will come up with what the 2023 version of that looks like, just a sample, and it’s got this checklist on there. As far as I know, it’s gonna be issued out with every certificate, I guess, as of October this year. So yeah, if you’re interested in seeing what that looks like, or if you want to have an as built verification done on your home, or just, you know, even for your own purposes, to be able to follow through the build. Go check that out. And yeah, we’ll probably provide more updates on that, I suppose later in the year once we’ve got more info on that as well. So, back to the development, given what you’ve been involved in and what you’ve seen at the Cape and you understand like what their intent is. Where do you see this going? Where do you see development going into the future? Is this something that you think others will pick up and run with? And yeah, it would just be great to hear your thoughts.


Jess Cuman  29:54

It’s already happening. So I guess I probably left some things out before. So there is no gas in the state, it’s all electric. That’s one thing that you were seeing a bit of movement from a few other developers around to do exactly the same thing, no gas, all electric. But like I said, this is basically a test case, this is the benchmark, new standard for sustainable living, pick that up and do it somewhere else. And I know the person, Brendon, who basically is the brainchild of this whole thing. I know that he talks to a lot of other bigger developers, and they’re always picking his brain and asking about stuff. So you know, the wheels are already in motion with that. And then they’re not too long. Especially if we’re moving to seven stars. We are at 7.5 up there. You’re gonna need to adopt what’s been done here and take it to every new estate wherever they can. And I know from living there, and having so much open space, it promotes an active lifestyle, that’s huge. A lot of people, we all sit on our bums all day, we’re clicking the mouse and working away. You know, just having open space to go and enjoy. It just makes you go for a walk or go play on the playground and that sort of stuff. So there’s no doubt that this needs to be picked up and duplicated or done better if they can in other places. I think the health benefits across the board is huge. Mortgage strain is massive on people. If you now have a house, yes, you pay a bit more upfront. But if you have a house that is basically self consuming – no power bills, hardly any water bills, no gas bill, because there isn’t any. That’s huge. I have 6.6 kilowatts of solar. Yes, I do have a battery as well. My power bill over winter was a touch over 200 dollars.


Sandra Redlich  32:05

Over all of winter?


Jess Cuman  32:06

Over all of winter.


Sandra Redlich  32:08

Yeah, that’s amazing. And we all know how bad this winter was!


Jess Cuman  32:11

Yeah. It’s almost just like the connection and services fees honestly. Summer, it’s not even a thing. While the sun shines, we’re all good. Yes, I had to pay upfront, I paid a little bit to have all those things. But over the journey, it’s going to pay for itself. In a very short amount of time, it’ll pay for itself.


Sandra Redlich  32:35

Well, we’ve mentioned, or you’ve mentioned, the hope – and we all agreed – of what is hopefully going to be included in the building code soon or what we would like to see in there. And one thing we always like to ask our podcast guests is if you get one free wish for the building code and something that would change just based on that wish. What would that be for you?


Jess Cuman  32:55

Yeah, I had a good think about this one, I just kept backing over the same thing. And it’s, you’ve talked about it all the time. It’s the as built verification, how do you know that you’re getting what you pay for? I think that’s massive. And we got it within our office, we were talking about this, you know, probably like eight years ago. So a couple of the guys within the office were builders before they started doing this sort of stuff. And they were talking about when they used to do stuff, if we just do this, we just do this up, so on and so forth. You know, and that’s many years ago, mind you, that mindset has completely changed now especially with all the builders that we are doing work with, personally that I’ve noticed, but yeah, being able to prove that what you’ve paid for is being constructed the way that was envisaged, especially if we’re not going outside all the time to, you know, to check this sort of stuff on it. I think that that’s massive. And you already mentioned the NatHERS certificate. If that comes into play, that’s just peace of mind. Knowing it’s done right. And then you’re well on your way to achieving probably a goal that you’d set out for in the first place.


Anthony Jenkin  34:15

Yeah, there’s so many analogies to apply to this situation. But I won’t harp on it again. We do get comments, you know, the feedback we get from that stereotypical builder. It’s like, how can you charge a couple of $1,000 dollars to look at my installation, that’s all good. Like, it’s just so much more than that, like, the client is, as a consumer myself, I want to know I’m getting what I pay for. And I want my house to perform as you told me it would.


Jess Cuman  34:45

That’s it. You know, gaps and cracks, or 5% gaps and cracks are worth 50% heating and cooling loss, that’s huge. Just add in a self massive and that’s not hard. That’s just off the bat silicone almost like that. That’s easy. This is all easy stuff. All this stuff can be replicated. Sealing up your windows, that’s not a hard thing to do. These tiny little things are super easy. Anyone can do them. But they made such a massive difference to its, it’s yeah, we can go on about this.


Sandra Redlich  35:25

Yeah, we’ll sign that wish for sure. That’s on my wish, or it’s been on our wish list for a while now. But yeah, it’s all looking like we might in the future, like our wishes will be heard.


Jess Cuman  35:36

Yeah, we’re lucky. The Cape has that basically, they do.


Anthony Jenkin  35:42

That’s awesome.


Jess Cuman  35:42

It’s amazing.


Anthony Jenkin  35:43

Yeah. And I mean, I’m going to plug here, we do offer that service. We have thermal cameras, blower doors, you know, we do. So if you do want to know any more about the as built verification stuff, please do reach out to us. We’re more than happy just to chat about it. Even if you’d like to know how about going to do it yourself for your own build.


Sandra Redlich  36:01

Yeah, and for anyone interested in learning more about the Cape, or maybe even, you know, talking a bit more in detail about thermal performance or thermal assessment and design questions. We’ll have your contact details in our show notes as well, just so make sure that people can reach out to you if they want to, and keep the conversation going. I’d be very interested in checking back in with you in a couple of months or maybe a year to see how the Cape is going, how life has been, how it’s all developing. And yeah, if you’re still happy where you are, any new developments that could be going on in that direction. That’d be very interesting to follow up on.


Jess Cuman  36:41

Absolutely, it is. There’s a couple of things happening in the background. So development wise and so on, so forth. Definitely got a heap of more projects coming up in the Cape and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, love to catch up.


Sandra Redlich  36:56

Sounds good. Well, for now, I would like to thank you for your time. Thank you for that interesting conversation and for sharing so much of your work with us and being so open and talking about it. Really appreciate it.


Anthony Jenkin  37:06

Thanks, Jess, I look forward to chatting again soon.